Nelson McCausland MLA
(Democratic Unionist Party - Constituency: North Belfast).
A personal blog in which I comment on a wide variety of issues, political, cultural, social, historical and religious. If something takes my attention, then I may well comment on it.
..these videos are actually quite interesting, its ironic though that in the modern era, Ulster Loyalists are so deeply involved with neo-nazi groups such as C-18.
For instance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/02/northernireland.henrymcdonald1
I am glad that you found the videos interesting because they show very clearly that the IRA and the rpublican movement collaborated with and colluded with the Nazis. This is certainly one aspect of Irish history that sinn Fein would prefer to forget. Moreover this was not some micro group or tiny fringe organisation, this was mainstream Irish republicanism, the heart of the republican movement.
Are you saying the IRA collaborated with Nazis, or 'Eire', that is the entire republic of Ireland state? Or both? Or do you see them as a synonymous entity?
Also again may I point out I personally find it ironic that a member of the Orange Order, a supremacist organisation i.e. the supremacy of Protestantism and the Williamite forces, should spend time calling people Nazis. I’ve often found that Orange Marches resemble Nazi rallies, what do you think, do you think they have any similarities?
You seem very anxious to divert attention away from the fact that the IRA collaborated with the Nazis and that the IRA chief of staff, Sean Russell, was a Nazi collaborator. While Ulstermen and Irishmen, Protestant and Roman Catholic, were fighting Fascism in Europe, the IRA were collaborating with Hitler.
As regards your sectarian comments about the Orange Order, they do not even deserve a response.
Nelson I can assure you my motivation is not to 'divert' anything away from the IRA and your allegations of nazi 'collaboration'. I have stated before I am not a fan of the IRA and believe it rude of you to insinuate and/or assume so merely for the sin of pointing out other facts to you, facts that you seem incapable of acknowledging, let alone addressing.
Indeed, to expose your insistence on cherry-picking history to suit your own narrative is very much my motivation.
Furthermore, my comments regarding the Orange Order were informed primarily by an online encyclopaedia (Wikipedia) and as I am certainly not a Roman Catholic I fail to see how I can be accused of sectarianism on this point. If a person criticises the OO does that automatically make them sectarian in your view?
Yet again I asked you a direct question and you, rather skilfully completely ignored it.
The charge of IRA collaboration with the Nazis is not so much an allegation as a fact.
I did not say that you were a 'fan of the IRA' and I neither assumed nor insinuated it.
The charge of cherry-picking is rather bizarre. This post and that about Sean Russell are about IRA collaboration with the Nazis and there is ample evidence, especially on the video clips, about that collaboration.
As regards the Orange Order I would suggest that it is rather unwise to base your allegations on Wikipedia. However when you said, ' I’ve often found that Orange Marches resemble Nazi rallies' you were referring to your own personal view not something you picked up from Wikipedia. That was your personal view and I regard it as sectarian and offensive.
So there we are and I return to the theme of the original posts, which is the fact that the IRA chief of staff was a Nazi collaborator and the IRA collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis. Have you ever asked members of Sinn Fein what they think about that?
Mr. McCausland, Why have you failed to mention that the majority of Irish republicans and republican socialists actually went and fought for the communist republican International Brigades (under the banner of the Connolly Column- named after James Connolly) against the fascist element of Franco's Conservative government in Spain ?
Also this 'collaboration' was by a tiny element within the IRA at a time when the horrors of Nazism was not known or had happened or were public knowledge, nor had the Holocaust or other evil and disgusting acts been known by anyone outside the leadership of the Nazis. And of course, the IRA 'collaboration' was not in respect of idealogical support or admiration, just tactically a move to remove the foreign imperialist and land grabbing and oppressive British state. Of course hindsight is a marvelous thing, but looking back it was still the wrong move to do, and i actually think it should be debated publicly, but to try and imply that this was some sort of policy with the IRA to 'collaborate' with the Nazis as a broader front of spreading the Nazi ideology is total false. Indeed, prior to Nazi collaboration former IRA members like Eoin O'Duffy were expelled because of their admiration for the European fascism at the time and went on to form the Blueshirts which were repeatedly attacked by the IRA.
Irish republicanism in the majority of its history has been predominantly left-wing with a strong socialist undercurrent.
Eoin O'Duffy and the Blueshirts was another interesting aspect of Irish history but that is not the subject of this post. However I might well take a look at that in another post.
As regards IRA collaboration with the Nazis and in response to your own post, I would just make three points:
1. You say that 'this 'collaboration' was by a tiny element within the IRA.' In fact it was organised by the chief of staff of the IRA. This collaboration with the Nazis was organised by the man who was at the very heart of the IRA and who controlled the IRA.
2. I made no comment on the motivation of Sean Russell. I merely stated that he, as chief of staff of the IRA, collaborated with the Nazis and that is a fact, as you yourself acknowledge.
3. You say that Irish republicanism 'has been predominantly left-wing with a strong socialist undercurrent'. What aspect of socialist ideology makes people murder unarmed and innocent men, women and children, because that is what mainstream Irish republicanism did in the 19th century and again in the 20th century?
Your 'Ulster-Nashville' blog makes for great reading Sir! I especially enjoyed reading your posts celebrating highly influential southerners.
I was particularly interesting in your fantastic entry entitled: ‘The Ulster-Scot who brought Presbyterianism to Nashville’. Indeed you include a foreword by a man called James H McNeilly. I’m sure you already know this, that the Reverend McNeilly was a staunch advocate of slavery. In fact Dr McNeilly pontificated that “the relation of master and slave was not in itself sinful, but that it was....sanctioned by the Word of God”. In fact of his many quotations on the matter my favourite has to be when he said that slavery was “a benefit to the slave, as well as profitable to the master”.
(Please read the book: Yankee Saints and Southern Sinners By Bertram Wyatt-Brown)
An ardent racist, whose words you have chosen to celebrate on your personal blog. By your logic, to celebrate such a man, automatically means that you advocate slavery in its entirety.
Even more interesting was your entry on David Campbell Kelley. One of Kelley’s closest allies during the war was a man called Nathan Bedford Forrest, a founding father of the KKK. If Kelley was a personal friend of Forrest, does this mean he was also of the same racist leanings?
Well it's good to see at least a minister in our government that is looking to the future instead of digging up the past in order to... I don't know. MrMcCausland, what's the point of this? Why bring this up? What good can it possibly do?
This is a personal blog and reflects many things in which I am interested - personal, cultural, political, spiritual and historical. It is a very diverse blog.
You ask what good the study of history can do. That is a question that you might also wish to put to all the history teachers in our schools, the producers of history programmes on television, the authors of historical books, and the historians in our universities!
In actual fact Kelley seems to have been quite a nice man and anti slavery, my point (clearly) is that he was close friends with shady and despicable characters (Forrest) and by your logic that must mean he advocates racism as well?
Its a ritorical point intended to expose the how tarring associates as advocating the same beliefs is ridiculous.
Also what of the esteemed Dr. McNeilly? I suppose you will attest that your quote was from an entirely different man that history records?
You seem unable to understand my point about the IRA and the Nazis. I did not say that the beliefs of the IRA was exactly the same as those of the Nazis, but rather that the IRA collaborated with the Nazis and men like Sean Russell were therefore collaborators. However some IRA members, such as Sean South, did share some of the beliefs of the Nazis.
Its not so much the IRAs 'reputation' I'm concerned about, but more so Eire at large that you seemed to be tarring as some sort of jew hating nazi incubator, which is unfair and untrue.
There were Irishmen fighting the Nazis in the ranks of the British Army and I have mentioned that in another post. However some of my posts and these clips from a television programme show the extent to which the IRA collaborated with the Nazis. In addition there have been others such as Sean South, a man who is eulogised by Sinn Fein, who were anti-semitic and shared many views with the Nazis.
As regards Dr J H McNeilly I have started to read his book Religion and Slavery. This has obviously been written by a supporter of the Confederacy but it does provide a wealth of material about how Southern churches and Southern churchmen related to African-Americans. I have not yet come across a copy of his other book The Failure of the Confederacy: Was It a Blessing?
I see that the YouTube videos at the top of this thread have been withdrawn. There was an excellent documentary on this subject, titled "The Shamrock and the Swastika". It was shown on RTE (!!!!!) some years ago. It confirms the points that Nelson has been making here. Robert Fisk's book, "In Time of War", also describes IRA attempts to get Hitler to attack Britain through Ireland. Hitler looked at their proposals, but decided to attack Russia instead - lucky for us! As regards Spain, Hitler bombed Guernica in 1937, to help install his fellow-fascist Franco in power. The IRA collaborators must have decided to overlook that fact.
..these videos are actually quite interesting, its ironic though that in the modern era, Ulster Loyalists are so deeply involved with neo-nazi groups such as C-18.
ReplyDeleteFor instance:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/02/northernireland.henrymcdonald1
I am glad that you found the videos interesting because they show very clearly that the IRA and the rpublican movement collaborated with and colluded with the Nazis. This is certainly one aspect of Irish history that sinn Fein would prefer to forget. Moreover this was not some micro group or tiny fringe organisation, this was mainstream Irish republicanism, the heart of the republican movement.
ReplyDeleteNelson,
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify,
Are you saying the IRA collaborated with Nazis, or 'Eire', that is the entire republic of Ireland state? Or both? Or do you see them as a synonymous entity?
Also again may I point out I personally find it ironic that a member of the Orange Order, a supremacist organisation i.e. the supremacy of Protestantism and the Williamite forces, should spend time calling people Nazis. I’ve often found that Orange Marches resemble Nazi rallies, what do you think, do you think they have any similarities?
You seem very anxious to divert attention away from the fact that the IRA collaborated with the Nazis and that the IRA chief of staff, Sean Russell, was a Nazi collaborator. While Ulstermen and Irishmen, Protestant and Roman Catholic, were fighting Fascism in Europe, the IRA were collaborating with Hitler.
ReplyDeleteAs regards your sectarian comments about the Orange Order, they do not even deserve a response.
Nelson I can assure you my motivation is not to 'divert' anything away from the IRA and your allegations of nazi 'collaboration'. I have stated before I am not a fan of the IRA and believe it rude of you to insinuate and/or assume so merely for the sin of pointing out other facts to you, facts that you seem incapable of acknowledging, let alone addressing.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, to expose your insistence on cherry-picking history to suit your own narrative is very much my motivation.
Furthermore, my comments regarding the Orange Order were informed primarily by an online encyclopaedia (Wikipedia) and as I am certainly not a Roman Catholic I fail to see how I can be accused of sectarianism on this point. If a person criticises the OO does that automatically make them sectarian in your view?
Yet again I asked you a direct question and you, rather skilfully completely ignored it.
The charge of IRA collaboration with the Nazis is not so much an allegation as a fact.
ReplyDeleteI did not say that you were a 'fan of the IRA' and I neither assumed nor insinuated it.
The charge of cherry-picking is rather bizarre. This post and that about Sean Russell are about IRA collaboration with the Nazis and there is ample evidence, especially on the video clips, about that collaboration.
As regards the Orange Order I would suggest that it is rather unwise to base your allegations on Wikipedia. However when you said, ' I’ve often found that Orange Marches resemble Nazi rallies' you were referring to your own personal view not something you picked up from Wikipedia. That was your personal view and I regard it as sectarian and offensive.
So there we are and I return to the theme of the original posts, which is the fact that the IRA chief of staff was a Nazi collaborator and the IRA collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis. Have you ever asked members of Sinn Fein what they think about that?
Mr. McCausland, Why have you failed to mention that the majority of Irish republicans and republican socialists actually went and fought for the communist republican International Brigades (under the banner of the Connolly Column- named after James Connolly) against the fascist element of Franco's Conservative government in Spain ?
ReplyDeleteAlso this 'collaboration' was by a tiny element within the IRA at a time when the horrors of Nazism was not known or had happened or were public knowledge, nor had the Holocaust or other evil and disgusting acts been known by anyone outside the leadership of the Nazis. And of course, the IRA 'collaboration' was not in respect of idealogical support or admiration, just tactically a move to remove the foreign imperialist and land grabbing and oppressive British state. Of course hindsight is a marvelous thing, but looking back it was still the wrong move to do, and i actually think it should be debated publicly, but to try and imply that this was some sort of policy with the IRA to 'collaborate' with the Nazis as a broader front of spreading the Nazi ideology is total false. Indeed, prior to Nazi collaboration former IRA members like Eoin O'Duffy were expelled because of their admiration for the European fascism at the time and went on to form the Blueshirts which were repeatedly attacked by the IRA.
Irish republicanism in the majority of its history has been predominantly left-wing with a strong socialist undercurrent.
Eoin O'Duffy and the Blueshirts was another interesting aspect of Irish history but that is not the subject of this post. However I might well take a look at that in another post.
ReplyDeleteAs regards IRA collaboration with the Nazis and in response to your own post, I would just make three points:
1. You say that 'this 'collaboration' was by a tiny element within the IRA.' In fact it was organised by the chief of staff of the IRA. This collaboration with the Nazis was organised by the man who was at the very heart of the IRA and who controlled the IRA.
2. I made no comment on the motivation of Sean Russell. I merely stated that he, as chief of staff of the IRA, collaborated with the Nazis and that is a fact, as you yourself acknowledge.
3. You say that Irish republicanism 'has been predominantly left-wing with a strong socialist undercurrent'. What aspect of socialist ideology makes people murder unarmed and innocent men, women and children, because that is what mainstream Irish republicanism did in the 19th century and again in the 20th century?
Hi Nelson,
ReplyDeleteYour 'Ulster-Nashville' blog makes for great reading Sir! I especially enjoyed reading your posts celebrating highly influential southerners.
I was particularly interesting in your fantastic entry entitled: ‘The Ulster-Scot who brought Presbyterianism to Nashville’. Indeed you include a foreword by a man called James H McNeilly.
I’m sure you already know this, that the Reverend McNeilly was a staunch advocate of slavery. In fact Dr McNeilly pontificated that “the relation of master and slave was not in itself sinful, but that it was....sanctioned by the Word of God”. In fact of his many quotations on the matter my favourite has to be when he said that slavery was “a benefit to the slave, as well as profitable to the master”.
(Please read the book: Yankee Saints and Southern Sinners By Bertram Wyatt-Brown)
An ardent racist, whose words you have chosen to celebrate on your personal blog. By your logic, to celebrate such a man, automatically means that you advocate slavery in its entirety.
Even more interesting was your entry on David Campbell Kelley. One of Kelley’s closest allies during the war was a man called Nathan Bedford Forrest, a founding father of the KKK. If Kelley was a personal friend of Forrest, does this mean he was also of the same racist leanings?
Well it's good to see at least a minister in our government that is looking to the future instead of digging up the past in order to... I don't know. MrMcCausland, what's the point of this? Why bring this up? What good can it possibly do?
ReplyDeleteThis is a personal blog and reflects many things in which I am interested - personal, cultural, political, spiritual and historical. It is a very diverse blog.
ReplyDeleteYou ask what good the study of history can do. That is a question that you might also wish to put to all the history teachers in our schools, the producers of history programmes on television, the authors of historical books, and the historians in our universities!
Hi Nelson, feel free to respond to my last post on this thread (18th of feb), I was looking forward to a direct response.
ReplyDeleteIam unaware of any racist comments or statements by Rev D C Kelley. Have you come across any?
ReplyDeleteIn actual fact Kelley seems to have been quite a nice man and anti slavery, my point (clearly) is that he was close friends with shady and despicable characters (Forrest) and by your logic that must mean he advocates racism as well?
ReplyDeleteIts a ritorical point intended to expose the how tarring associates as advocating the same beliefs is ridiculous.
Also what of the esteemed Dr. McNeilly? I suppose you will attest that your quote was from an entirely different man that history records?
You seem unable to understand my point about the IRA and the Nazis. I did not say that the beliefs of the IRA was exactly the same as those of the Nazis, but rather that the IRA collaborated with the Nazis and men like Sean Russell were therefore collaborators. However some IRA members, such as Sean South, did share some of the beliefs of the Nazis.
ReplyDeleteIts not so much the IRAs 'reputation' I'm concerned about, but more so Eire at large that you seemed to be tarring as some sort of jew hating nazi incubator, which is unfair and untrue.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, what do you say of Dr.McNeilly??
There were Irishmen fighting the Nazis in the ranks of the British Army and I have mentioned that in another post. However some of my posts and these clips from a television programme show the extent to which the IRA collaborated with the Nazis. In addition there have been others such as Sean South, a man who is eulogised by Sinn Fein, who were anti-semitic and shared many views with the Nazis.
ReplyDeleteAs regards Dr J H McNeilly I have started to read his book Religion and Slavery. This has obviously been written by a supporter of the Confederacy but it does provide a wealth of material about how Southern churches and Southern churchmen related to African-Americans. I have not yet come across a copy of his other book The Failure of the Confederacy: Was It a Blessing?
ReplyDeleteI see that the YouTube videos at the top of this thread have been withdrawn.
ReplyDeleteThere was an excellent documentary on this subject, titled "The Shamrock and the Swastika". It was shown on RTE (!!!!!) some years ago. It confirms the points that Nelson has been making here. Robert Fisk's book, "In Time of War", also describes IRA attempts to get Hitler to attack Britain through Ireland. Hitler looked at their proposals, but decided to attack Russia instead - lucky for us!
As regards Spain, Hitler bombed Guernica in 1937, to help install his fellow-fascist Franco in power. The IRA collaborators must have decided to overlook that fact.